I think WIlly could be a franchise QB but why tie up cap space now - any extension will require a huge signing bonus...  figure it out after the season.

 

Atomic is right - what's the difference between $400k now or $500k if he is league MVP?

FA is over. New recruits are relatively cheap.

If we have the cap space now, use it to re-sign him to lock him up. There is no one else to save it for.

 

 

Exactly Rich.

 

Take the opportunity when you can. And they will.

 

So many thrifty Manitobans would rather let a franchise QB walk away than pay them anything short of a deal.

The crux of the matter is... 'Is Willy a franchise QB'?  If you think he is then you want to lock him down for as long as possible no matter the cost.  If you think he's a JAQ (Just another QB) then you don't care if he's signed or not.  If you're not sure (Me) then you want him to prove it before you give him the big bucks.

 

Your argument would be valid if contracts were guaranteed, but seeing that they are not, the worst thing that happens is that we pay him top dollar for one year and if he doesn't pan out, we cut him.  If he is the real deal, then we are getting exactly what we are paying for. So this is, in my opinion, a small gamble, compared to the potential big payoff.  

 

Your argument would be valid if it was a binary situation.  Either great or bust.  The reality is that there's lots of shades of grey in between.  

 

We may still want to keep Willy if he's progressing even if he's not great this year.  That becomes harder to do the more you pay him.  It also forces us to start Willy otherwise it looks like Management doesn't know what they are doing by paying him as the franchise QB  

 

It's a huge gamble either way.  Put all our eggs in the Willy basket in the hope that he's the QB we've been looking for forever.   If it turns out he is, then great, we made the right move.  If it turns out he's not, then we've lost time, money and spent our SMS poorly which we could have used to upgrade the team elsewhere.  We take on all the risk of any injuries that Willy may have and the risk that he's not the QB we've been looking for.  OTOH, if we wait to see if Willy's the guy we run the risk of having to pay him more next year.  He takes on the injury risk and the risk of not being the QB we're hoping he is.

FA is over. New recruits are relatively cheap.

If we have the cap space now, use it to re-sign him to lock him up. There is no one else to save it for.

 

Could be right, I'm not going to lose my mind if he signs an extension... but I don't see it as a necessity.

 

Not sure anything gets done before the season though - Walters will want incentive-based, Willy will want high base salary.

FA is over. New recruits are relatively cheap.

If we have the cap space now, use it to re-sign him to lock him up. There is no one else to save it for.

 

And if we don't have the cap space?  Who do you cut?  If we're talking about a 100k signing bonus, we're also talking about cutting that much salary.

 

So who do you want to get rid of?  Nick Moore, Clarence Denmark?  Bryant Turner, Chris Randle?  It's gotta be someone making good money, or a handful of veteran guys making more than league average.  Either way, you're talking about replacing a star with a rookie, or several veterans with rookies.  All to accommodate a guy who is under contract and going to be here either way.

 

FA is over. New recruits are relatively cheap.

If we have the cap space now, use it to re-sign him to lock him up. There is no one else to save it for.

 

And if we don't have the cap space?  Who do you cut?  If we're talking about a 100k signing bonus, we're also talking about cutting that much salary.

 

So who do you want to get rid of?  Nick Moore, Clarence Denmark?  Bryant Turner, Chris Randle?  It's gotta be someone making good money, or a handful of veteran guys making more than league average.  Either way, you're talking about replacing a star with a rookie, or several veterans with rookies.  All to accommodate a guy who is under contract and going to be here either way.

 

100k = one new rookie body. 

League minimum is $55k.

 

FA is over. New recruits are relatively cheap.

If we have the cap space now, use it to re-sign him to lock him up. There is no one else to save it for.

 

And if we don't have the cap space?  Who do you cut?  If we're talking about a 100k signing bonus, we're also talking about cutting that much salary.

 

So who do you want to get rid of?  Nick Moore, Clarence Denmark?  Bryant Turner, Chris Randle?  It's gotta be someone making good money, or a handful of veteran guys making more than league average.  Either way, you're talking about replacing a star with a rookie, or several veterans with rookies.  All to accommodate a guy who is under contract and going to be here either way.

 

 

 

Pretty tough to say when I can't see the books or what the players are making or what our cap situation is like, which is why I said if ....   But if you want an answer off the top of my head, I'd say  Vega and Morley. 

The point is, you wouldn't have to cut a star player to find 100k....

i would also assume that discussions have been on going during the off season, so the Bombers would have budgeted to pay Willy more.

It all comes down to if they can sign him within that budget.

FA is over. New recruits are relatively cheap.

If we have the cap space now, use it to re-sign him to lock him up. There is no one else to save it for.

 

Exactly. Your contingency is still going to be there for guys like Mulumba or Bilukidi either way and anything you're going to have to pay them if they pop up spontaneously is worth paying the penalty for (and there's no risk of us falling into the draft pick loss zone at this point) so if the space is there, it'd be silly to not use it.

Also ... there's literally zero chance we're up against the cap at this point. We still have lots of money to spend.

 

That's why isolating moves like the Vega release to suggest it was in order to afford Willy isn't a suggestion that carries much backing.

Why would Willy sign an extension right now, unless he feels like it is more than what he will get in the off-season?

 

So that he can get a raise for this year.

The point is, you wouldn't have to cut a star player to find 100k....

You have to replace that player. If league minimum is 55k and you need 100k, you have to cut a player making 155k and replace him with a 55k player to get that. Or two players making 105k and replace them both with players making 55k.

So yeah, you do.

Also ... there's literally zero chance we're up against the cap at this point. We still have lots of money to spend.

That's why isolating moves like the Vega release to suggest it was in order to afford Willy isn't a suggestion that carries much backing.

We don't know the cap situation. Look at how free agency went... They spent a lot. Every big spend requires the money to come from somewhere.

 

The point is, you wouldn't have to cut a star player to find 100k....

 

You have to replace that player.  If league minimum is 55k and you need 100k, you have to cut a player making 155k and replace him with a 55k player to get that.  Or two players making 95k and replace them both with players making 55k. 

 

So yeah, you do.

 

You don't cut a star player, you cut your over paid middle roster guys and replace them with rookies. 

The point is, you wouldn't have to cut a star player to find 100k....

You have to replace that player. If league minimum is 55k and you need 100k, you have to cut a player making 155k and replace him with a 55k player to get that. Or two players making 95k and replace them both with players making 55k.

So yeah, you do.

You don't cut a star player, you cut your over paid middle roster guys and replace them with rookies.

Lol like that's nothing at all? The team is already young and inexperienced.

Also ... there's literally zero chance we're up against the cap at this point. We still have lots of money to spend.

That's why isolating moves like the Vega release to suggest it was in order to afford Willy isn't a suggestion that carries much backing.

I never said we were against the cap when I said Vega's cut may be related to a Willy extension. You're talking like you know, when in reality you have no clue what our cap situation is.

Let's say Walters projects to be $300k under the cap before the season starts. A Willy extension puts him over that, so he cuts Vega to sign Willy and still allow that $300k cushion.

All of you who think that 100k is going to put us in a financial bind re: SMS, must really think Kyle Walters is a moron....

All of you who think that 100k is going to put us in a financial bind re: SMS, must really think Kyle Walters is a moron....

I don't think anyone suggested that, but I'd assume Walters operates with a budget and salary forecasts for the season.

 

 

 

The point is, you wouldn't have to cut a star player to find 100k....

You have to replace that player. If league minimum is 55k and you need 100k, you have to cut a player making 155k and replace him with a 55k player to get that. Or two players making 95k and replace them both with players making 55k.

So yeah, you do.

You don't cut a star player, you cut your over paid middle roster guys and replace them with rookies.

Lol like that's nothing at all? The team is already young and inexperienced.

 

Which is why all this talk is ridiculous. You think the team as it stands now has any kind of cap crunch to worry about? 

 

 

 

Exactly Rich.

 

Take the opportunity when you can. And they will.

 

So many thrifty Manitobans would rather let a franchise QB walk away than pay them anything short of a deal.

The crux of the matter is... 'Is Willy a franchise QB'?  If you think he is then you want to lock him down for as long as possible no matter the cost.  If you think he's a JAQ (Just another QB) then you don't care if he's signed or not.  If you're not sure (Me) then you want him to prove it before you give him the big bucks.

 

Your argument would be valid if contracts were guaranteed, but seeing that they are not, the worst thing that happens is that we pay him top dollar for one year and if he doesn't pan out, we cut him.  If he is the real deal, then we are getting exactly what we are paying for. So this is, in my opinion, a small gamble, compared to the potential big payoff.  

 

Your argument would be valid if it was a binary situation.  Either great or bust.  The reality is that there's lots of shades of grey in between.  

 

We may still want to keep Willy if he's progressing even if he's not great this year.  That becomes harder to do the more you pay him.  It also forces us to start Willy otherwise it looks like Management doesn't know what they are doing by paying him as the franchise QB  

 

It's a huge gamble either way.  Put all our eggs in the Willy basket in the hope that he's the QB we've been looking for forever.   If it turns out he is, then great, we made the right move.  If it turns out he's not, then we've lost time, money and spent our SMS poorly which we could have used to upgrade the team elsewhere.  We take on all the risk of any injuries that Willy may have and the risk that he's not the QB we've been looking for.  OTOH, if we wait to see if Willy's the guy we run the risk of having to pay him more next year.  He takes on the injury risk and the risk of not being the QB we're hoping he is.

 

 

Yes it is not binary, yes there is lots of room for grey, no it's not a huge gamble.  It's a mild regret.

 

Whatever imaginary formula is used to calculate a QB's value - wins, TDs, TD:int ratio, whatever - there's not much chance that paying him more than that amount creates collateral damage.  There aren't any upgrades we'll pass on between now and November because of paying Willy more than he might "deserve".  With the exception of a few opportunities like a hypothetical Muamba return mid season, what we have now will be our roster.  And what we have now will already have wiggle room built in for injuries, extensions, NFL cuts, and all the same stuff that has happened every previous SMS season.

 

And if the bar for QB value has been set by Burris - each win is worth $225,000 - then I'll step out on that limb and boldly declare that Willy will be worth the money!

 

Also ... there's literally zero chance we're up against the cap at this point. We still have lots of money to spend.

That's why isolating moves like the Vega release to suggest it was in order to afford Willy isn't a suggestion that carries much backing.

I never said we were against the cap when I said Vega's cut may be related to a Willy extension. You're talking like you know, when in reality you have no clue what our cap situation is.

Let's say Walters projects to be $300k under the cap before the season starts. A Willy extension puts him over that, so he cuts Vega to sign Willy and still allow that $300k cushion.

 

 

I don't need to know the specifics of our cap situation to know that we're nowhere near a position that forces our hand in personnel decisions. We have one of the cheapest starting quarterbacks in the league, we have very few players on their second CFL contracts and we've been involved in the bidding on multiple high price tag players even recently.

 

A move like Vega, to me, wasn't about clearing space. It was about the reality of a price tag to performance ratio that didn't favor Vega. Our best player at mini camp was a guy looking to take Vega's spot, Vega probably had some kind of bonus due for arriving at training camp and they decided the chance of him actually winning the spot wasn't high enough to warrant paying that bonus.

 

When Walters says moves are based on the salary cap, I think a lot of people take that to mean clearing space is necessary. That's not necessarily what he is saying. What he is saying is these days, cash isn't infinite. You only have so much to spend on players and if you aren't earning your contract, you're not going to stay employed.

 

All I'm saying is we don't need to find a way to afford a Drew Willy extension right now. As mentioned earlier, I'm sure it's something they've already budgeted properly for, they're not irresponsible enough to have to find a way to come up with the money. Especially not in April.

 

Also ... there's literally zero chance we're up against the cap at this point. We still have lots of money to spend.

That's why isolating moves like the Vega release to suggest it was in order to afford Willy isn't a suggestion that carries much backing.

I never said we were against the cap when I said Vega's cut may be related to a Willy extension. You're talking like you know, when in reality you have no clue what our cap situation is.

Let's say Walters projects to be $300k under the cap before the season starts. A Willy extension puts him over that, so he cuts Vega to sign Willy and still allow that $300k cushion.

 

 

Regardless of your thinking related to the cap, you're making it sound like one had to be done, in order to do the other.

Also ... there's literally zero chance we're up against the cap at this point. We still have lots of money to spend.

That's why isolating moves like the Vega release to suggest it was in order to afford Willy isn't a suggestion that carries much backing.

I never said we were against the cap when I said Vega's cut may be related to a Willy extension. You're talking like you know, when in reality you have no clue what our cap situation is.

Let's say Walters projects to be $300k under the cap before the season starts. A Willy extension puts him over that, so he cuts Vega to sign Willy and still allow that $300k cushion.

Regardless of your thinking related to the cap, you're making it sound like one had to be done, in order to do the other.

Yes that's exactly what I'm saying. I don't know for sure that's the case, but the two moves (Vega cut and Willy extension) might be related. I never once said that the Bombers were tight against the cap though.